Recording subtitles

[paulab]

Is there a PVR anywhere that can reliably record and playback UK Freeview subtitles?

I have been using a Topfield 5800 for years which was faultless with subtitles on recordings. That finally died and I bought a Humax HDR2000T. That will record and replay subtitles correctly on most BBC channels but elsewhere they often detach from the video and audio and simply stream ahead, so that they are impossible to use.

Looking for an alternative that might be more reliable, I received a Miraclebox Premium Twin plus today with the latest Open Vix and after setting it up I tried recording and then playing back with subtitles. The performance was even worse that on the Humax, with BBC subtitles as bad as on the other channels. They appear to be completely detached from the video.

World of Satellite can offer nothing, except an RMA. Does anybody know of a box, or an image that is capable of handling recorded subtitles correctly?

Thanks

PaulAB

 

[ronand]

Openvix does support subtitle recording and does it properly.

 

[Ford1]

Ive used both a xtrend et8000 and Edison osmini without any problems with subtitles on any channel, in the subtitle menu, if you are having problems, you can set a delay on the subtitles to keep them "in sync" if that is the problem you are having?

 

[paulab]

Ronand, Openvix does not appear to do a very good job with subtitle recording here. To be clear, we are talking about UK Freeview, and recorded subtitles. I set up recordings on BBC 1 and Channel 4. In both cases when I tried to replay them the subtitles simply streamed ahead -- this is not a matter of being out of sync, they are completely detached from the video. In the case of Channel 4 the recording started with some adverts but the subtitles to the programme were already showing.

Ford 1, it is not a matter of the subtitles not being in sync. As I said, they are completely detached.

This is not unique to OpenVix. The same thing happens on some channels with Humax, and is well documented. If there is a setting that can control this, please let me know, but I cannot see anything that would appear to have any influence.

Where are subtitles handled in recordings? Will it be different with different hardware or it is all handled in the OpenVix software. Perhaps some machines are more capable than others? This is immensely frustrating.

PaulAB

 

[Ford1]

I feel this may be unique to you, I live in a household where both my partner and I are both hard of hearing, and as mentioned I have never had a problem when recording and then playing back. I have "fine tuned" the delay / advance of the subtitles on both receivers to prevent the subtitles appearing before they are needed. this is a problem we used to have on a sky box, but the ability to customise the os in enigma2 have drastically reduced this.

I have no idea why you are having problems, maybe to do with the storage media? only a guess.

I just want to say that afaik openvix and enigma2 have no inherent problems with subtitles being OOS in any way.

I have read your other post and I feel you may have given up on the receiver a little to early, sending it back to WOS.

I'm sure with a little more info from the receiver setup someone would have pointed you in the right direction.

I hope you find a solution to your problem, as I have said, I rely on the subtitle also, so know how frustrating this can be.

Just a thought, what subtitles are you using, from memory there are ususlly 2 options,
1, teletext 888
2, dvb subtitles

I always use the 888 option as the subtitles display a lot more clearly?

 

[adm]

Is there a PVR anywhere that can reliably record and playback UK Freeview subtitles?

Make sure that you are selecting the DVB subtitles and not any other option when pressing the subtitle button (the default setting for DVB sub-titles is yellow /green with a black background).

With subtitles being displayed press the subtitle button again on the remote and then press the red button on the remote to bring up the subtitle menu. You can add a delay in there.

Although I don't use sub-titles that much on my Extrend using Vix they are in sync for both live and recorded programs (satellite Freesat).

 

[Rob van der Does]

Openvix does not appear to do a very good job with subtitle recording here.

Where are subtitles handled in recordings?

Just to make clear what happens: all Enigma2-STB's record the complete TS (transport stream), so that includes all (audio/video/data) what the provider has mixed in his transmission.
e.g. when the provider supports TeleText, that's also available during playback. And the same applies to subtitles.
BBC (1/2/3/ SD/HD) has both DVB & teletext subtitles: I use them all the time and they work perfect. The TeleText subtitles are the ones you should use, as E2 does a perfect job in grabbing them and displaying them exactly as you want, while DVB-subtitles are just graphical overlays in which we can only change the colour.
Be aware that there are two sub-menu's where you can adjust them to your liking:
1- In Main menu/Setup/System/Subtitle settings you make all the global settings. Please make sure you setup the subtitles the correct way; see my screenshot for my settings:



2- You can also make temporarely changes to those settings during playback, by clicking on the subtitle button:



and then on the red button:



The latter method offers you a way to see the effect of your changes right away.

To be clear, we are talking about UK Freeview, and recorded subtitles. I set up recordings on BBC 1 and Channel 4. In both cases when I tried to replay them the subtitles simply streamed ahead -- this is not a matter of being out of sync, they are completely detached from the video. In the case of Channel 4 the recording started with some adverts but the subtitles to the programme were already showing.

So that's indeed the perfect definition of being out of sync.
You can set the (positive or negative) delay in the two menu's I showed you.
The problem with subtitles is, that the provider sometimes send them without a time stamp (or with wrong time stamps). That means they are not ordered to show at a specific time or at the wrong time. During live-TV this is not a problem: they will be shown at the very moment they are received, which will be correct most of the time. But during playback the lack of timings play havoc, as you've seen yourself. BBC used to be very good in this respect, but lately they tend to 'forget' the timings. IMHO a matter of quality control.
But: the good news is that ViX allows you to correct that (although the correction can be different per show). Just play around with the delay settings that show in my 3rd screenshot. When doing so, be aware that it takes some time between your changed setting shows as such. Lately I sometimes had to go as far as to set it to 11 seconds!

Ford 1, it is not a matter of the subtitles not being in sync. As I said, they are completely detached.

I hope you now understand it's indeed about being out of sync.

Will it be different with different hardware or it is all handled in the OpenVix software. Perhaps some machines are more capable than others?

Nope, even the eldest, cheapest ViX-supported STB does a good job in this area. As it should, because recording & playback are basic functionalities of an STB.

Openvix does not appear to do a very good job with subtitle recording here.

If there is a setting that can control this, please let me know, but I cannot see anything that would appear to have any influence.

Hmmm, first you say OpenViX does a bad job, and only then you ask for help. Next time please ask for help first, before drawing any conclusions.

 

[paulab]

Thanks, I will try some of these suggestions and let you know.

You are right that I gave up very quickly, but that was partly because I asked for help through a ticket a WOS and was sent an RMA to return the machine, which led me to think I had already reached the end of the line.

PaulAB

 

[paulab]

I have reset factory defaults and am making some new recordings. However I only seem to have DVB subtitles available. There is never a teletext option when I press subtitles button, even with BBC channels. Could I have switched them off, somehow?

PaulAB

 

[Rob van der Does]

Nope, you can't. Maybe it depends on which BBC-service you are?
But although the quality of the titles is less, you can also use the DVB-titles, and synchronise them the same way.

 

[paulab]

Yes, I have been playing with sync on the DVB subtitles but it is proving difficult. With one recording I had to go to a delay of 20s and it still was not quite in sync. There is such variability too. Maybe there is a standard delay on each channel but at the moment it seems extremely cumbersome.

I am not quite sure where to go from here.

Is there likely to be better performance with a different image?

PaulAB

 

[Rob van der Does]

Yes, I have been playing with sync on the DVB subtitles but it is proving difficult. With one recording I had to go to a delay of 20s and it still was not quite in sync.

Yes, it sure is difficult, and when the time laps is large, it will take you some time.

There is such variability too. Maybe there is a standard delay on each channel but at the moment it seems extremely cumbersome.

It is variable, absolutely. But remember it's a fault of the provider, and this fault is really not standard (not per provider & not per service). And then again you'll notice that the fault has (temporally?) gone, and timing is fine.

Is there likely to be better performance with a different image?

No. ViX is one of the few images that has this option at all.

And again: don't blame us or the hardware; it's the provider you should blame.

Tip: Maybe you can use other services?
BBC has multiple services, and maybe they differ in this respect. Or switch between DVB-C//T/S if you have those options.

 

[paulab]

Thanks for you support with this. However after one and a half days trying to get a workable solution with subtitles I have given up and returned the box. Some of the timings are just crazy and there does not seem to be even one channel that is actually in sync. I have no doubt you are correct about it being down to the way the signal is transmitted, and perhaps it is specifically a UK Freeview problem . However I do not have another options available -- no cable here and no satellite possible.

It is a shame, because dedicated UK Freeview boxes can do a much better job so it must be possible to solve this problem at the receiver end. My Humax is far from ideal but it manages to keep recorded subtitles synced for BBC channels and often for others too. The Topfield that I had, which admittedly only recorded SD, handled them perfectly. I never saw this issue while that machine was still alive.

I suppose OpenVix is international so there is no specific development for UK freeview. A shame, as the machine, and the interface were much better than anything Humax can offer.

Anyway, thanks again for your support.

PaulAB

 

[Rob van der Does]

FYI: I have no issues with BBC's subtitles. The odd times they are out of sync, the GUI allows me to correct that.
And there's nothing specific about Freeview in this respect.

 

[paulab]

Well, it is a puzzle. No doubt I have been doing something wrong.

PaulAB

 

[birdman]

Nope, you can't. Maybe it depends on which BBC-service you are?
But although the quality of the titles is less, you can also use the DVB-titles, and synchronise them the same way.

I only have DVB ones too (UK Freeview). I've just tested things out on various recordings from BBC ONE HD, BBC FOUR HD, Dave and Film4. All look fine. The Dave ones slightly out but increasing the delay by 1s fixed that.

I was intrigued to see that there are apparently subtitles (i.e. there is s subtitle stream) on the foreign-language Detective/Drama series which BBC Four shows (Sat - 9pm) but switching them on/off has no effect at all. Presumably those subtitles are merged into the video.

 

[Rob van der Does]

And what if you just scan 28.2E and go to those services (BBC/ITV)? They really do have TeleText as well, I always use TT (for the reason I gave earlier: far superior to DVB).
UK TV-show in foreign language has indeed English subtitles 'burned' in the video.

 

[birdman]

And what if you just scan 28.2E and go to those services (BBC/ITV)?

That wouldn't be Freeview - that would be Freesat.
And I have no satellite dish.

 

[Ford1]

The only issue I have found, is if you watch or record something that is broardcast "live" like say "the last leg" or "x-factor" then the subtitles are massively OOS but you would expect that as they are being written "On the fly" as it were?

 

[Rob van der Does]

That wouldn't be Freeview - that would be Freesat.

Oops, have I been mislead by 'Freeview' & 'Freesat'
Anyway: for the timing issue this makes no difference.

The only issue I have found, is if you watch or record something that is broardcast "live" like say "the last leg" or "x-factor" then the subtitles are massively OOS but you would expect that as they are being written "On the fly" as it were?

That's indeed 'live typing' (imagine how good you have to listen and type for that. And in other countries often translating as well!), so not related to synchronisation issues.