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ABM DVB-T support

fat-tony said:
Ok here you go! By the way, I had to terminate the dvbsnoop command after several minutes when it seemed like it wasn't going to finish by itself. I guess the count of whatever packets you were looking for didn't make it to 100?
Click to expand...

Hi, I've also run the same commands on my VU+ solo2 box with latest Apollo image (just in case there is a difference between my and fat tony's Gigaplus quad box). I am also located in Greystones, Co. Wicklow by the way!

View attachment Archive.zip
 
@Peterj - I'm around for about one more hour and then will be away until late Monday evening, so if you want more snoops, please ask!
 
@fat-tony. ABM is reading NIT content from a 'home channel', which contains all information of all channels of a provider. The purpose of ABM is to detect changes and process it in the lamedb to keep data up to date. This is working for DVB-s and DVB-c very well. For DVB-t it is different, as you earlier described. We have to deal with repeaters working on a different frequency.
Also it shows that also frequency of a repeaters is not show in NIT either.
The examples you posted shows also that 1 stream (freq) also as information in the NIT of that specific stream and not information of the other streams of that provider.
It is impossible to make 1 xml for 1 dvb-t provider. One must make an xml for each repeater and put each available frequency of that repeater in the xml. The question now is, what is extra value of ABM to try read NIT for changes, when there is only information available for that specific stream.

Here the analysis of the 2 NIT dump you posted. (the dumps mcquaim posted are the same)
As you can see only info for 1 stream in NIT.
Also freq. 754000000 you tuned into isn't mentioned in NIT.
Code: 
Network id    : 	3201 	12801 
Section       : 	0 
Network name  : 	RTENL 1
	Stream id    : 	03e9
		DVB-T.
		Frequency          : 	198500000
		Priority           : 	1	LP
		Time slicing ind.  : 	1
		MPE-FEC indicator  : 	1
		Constellation      : 	10	RS204/188
		Hierarchy inform.  : 	000
		Code-rate HP stream: 	001	2/3
		Code-rate LP stream: 	001	2/3
		Guard-interval     : 	00	1/32
		Transmission mode  : 	01	8k
		Other freq. flag   : 	1
			Centre Frequency   : 	177500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	184500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	191500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	198500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	205500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	474000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	482000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	514000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	530000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	546000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	626000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	666000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	674000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	682000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	690000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	706000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	722000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	730000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	738000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	746000000

All sections read.
Code: 
Network id    : 	3201 	12801 
Section       : 	0 
Network name  : 	RTENL 2
	Stream id    : 	03ea
		DVB-T.
		Frequency          : 	198500000
		Priority           : 	1	LP
		Time slicing ind.  : 	1
		MPE-FEC indicator  : 	1
		Constellation      : 	10	RS204/188
		Hierarchy inform.  : 	000
		Code-rate HP stream: 	001	2/3
		Code-rate LP stream: 	001	2/3
		Guard-interval     : 	00	1/32
		Transmission mode  : 	01	8k
		Other freq. flag   : 	1
			Centre Frequency   : 	177500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	184500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	191500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	198500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	205500000
			Centre Frequency   : 	474000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	482000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	514000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	530000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	546000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	626000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	666000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	674000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	682000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	690000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	706000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	722000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	730000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	738000000
			Centre Frequency   : 	746000000

All sections read.

example of specific xml:
Code: 
<provider>
	<name>Saorview</name>
	<streamtype>dvbt</streamtype>
	<protocol>lcn</protocol>
	<namespace>0xeeee0000</namespace>
	<dvbtconfigs>
		<configuration key="RTENL1" frequency="722000000" inversion="0" modulation="4" system="1" bandwidth="8000000" code_rate_hp="5" code_rate_lp="5" transmission_mode="6" guard_interval="5" hierarchy="4">Saorview RTENL1</configuration>
		<configuration key="RTENL2" frequency="754000000" inversion="0" modulation="4" system="1" bandwidth="8000000" code_rate_hp="5" code_rate_lp="5" transmission_mode="6" guard_interval="5" hierarchy="4">Saorview RTENL2</configuration>
	</dvbtconfigs>
	<sections>
	</sections>
	<servicehacks>
		<![CDATA[
		]]>
	</servicehacks>
</provider>
 
@Peterj

You reckon that XML should work and I shouldn't get tune failed?

The only difference to mine is the parameter system being 1 instead of 0 (apart from my freq being different..)
 
mcquaim said:
@Peterj

You reckon that XML should work and I shouldn't get tune failed?

The only difference to mine is the parameter system being 1 instead of 0 (apart from my freq being different..)
Click to expand...

Use the values in your log file, when you have tuned to that frequency.
Search in the log file for e.g. 'constellation' and you will find the values.
example:
Code: 
bandwidth: 8000000
code_rate_lp: 0
code_rate_hp: 1
constellation: 2
transmission_mode: 1
guard_interval: 0
hierarchy_information: 0
inversion: 2
system: 0
frequency: 649999995

Use in this case for frequency: 650000000
 
Peterj said:
Use the values in your log file, when you have tuned to that frequency.
Search in the log file for e.g. 'constellation' and you will find the values.
example:
Code: 
bandwidth: 8000000
code_rate_lp: 0
code_rate_hp: 1
constellation: 2
transmission_mode: 1
guard_interval: 0
hierarchy_information: 0
inversion: 2
system: 0
frequency: 649999995

Use in this case for frequency: 650000000
Click to expand...

Cheers Peter, I will try that tomorrow! I did all that except for rounding up the frequency so I will see if that works..

Thanks a mill :thumbsup:
 
Just tried Peter's XML above and I am getting the Tuner lock error message...
 
jsnyxx said:
Just tried Peter's XML above and I am getting the Tuner lock error message...
Click to expand...
Do a full tuner rescan again to get working channel.
Restart enigma2 and tune to a dvb-t channel.
Pls post logfile after that.
 
mcquaim said:
Cheers Peter, I will try that tomorrow! I did all that except for rounding up the frequency so I will see if that works..

Thanks a mill :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
@mcquaim - your two frequencies are 682000000 (UHF Ch 47) and 654000000 (UHF Ch 44) for Saorview Mux 1 and Mux 2 respectively from Claremont Carn. The fact that the tuner is reporting frequency of 653999999 is probably some artefact of how the tuner is locking on to the signal. The "rounded up" values are the correct ones as listed by RTENL (or 2RN as they are now known).
 
Last edited:
jsnyxx said:
Just tried Peter's XML above and I am getting the Tuner lock error message...
Click to expand...

@jsnyxx - I don't see how this will work in any case unless the Python code in ABM is modified to use the xml frequencies instead of the frequency found in the NIT. The NIT frequency is wrong and @Peterj said that ABM uses that frequency to store in lamedb.
 
@Peterj - thanks for posting the analysis of the NIT. It confirms the information I posted earlier in the thread in that the frequency data is incomplete and is wrong in some cases. There is a service list of all the streams in the multiplex and ABM is extracting those OK. It's just that the frequency information is being invalidated by the erroneous data contained in the NIT.
Are you suggesting that ABM will be modified to work with the data in the Saorview NIT or is it a non-runner? Does it work ok for the UK Freeview network? Is this because there is a BAT in the Freeview stream data and that the NIT is, in fact unique and correct for each transmitter?

The satellite info is much more reliable because there is BAT data for SKY and Freesat with correct pointers to the transponders containing the channels, plus the fact that there are no local signal reception differences as everyone can receive the same transponders reliably all over the UK and Ireland (assuming adequate dish is used). The terrestrial environment is much more complex in that there are localised relay stations as well as the main transmitters.
 
fat-tony said:
@Peterj - thanks for posting the analysis of the NIT. It confirms the information I posted earlier in the thread in that the frequency data is incomplete and is wrong in some cases. There is a service list of all the streams in the multiplex and ABM is extracting those OK. It's just that the frequency information is being invalidated by the erroneous data contained in the NIT.
Are you suggesting that ABM will be modified to work with the data in the Saorview NIT or is it a non-runner? Does it work ok for the UK Freeview network? Is this because there is a BAT in the Freeview stream data and that the NIT is, in fact unique and correct for each transmitter?

The satellite info is much more reliable because there is BAT data for SKY and Freesat with correct pointers to the transponders containing the channels, plus the fact that there are no local signal reception differences as everyone can receive the same transponders reliably all over the UK and Ireland (assuming adequate dish is used). The terrestrial environment is much more complex in that there are localised relay stations as well as the main transmitters.
Click to expand...

then in that case your transmitter does NOT support ABM, it looks you need to using a REAL transmitter and not a repeater. looks like repeater will not be supported by ABM, as ABM can not get gather the needed information, but i am sure PeterJ can clarify.
 
andyblac said:
then in that case your transmitter does NOT support ABM, it looks you need to using a REAL transmitter and not a repeater. looks like repeater will not be supported by ABM, as ABM can not get gather the needed information, but i am sure PeterJ can clarify.
Click to expand...
@andyblac - I don't know what you mean by REAL transmitter vs repeater. The exact same data is present on all transmitters - main and relays. Have you any examples of Saorview transmitters working under ABM? What set of processes does ABM undertake to extract the relevant information for lamedb and the bouquet? If I knew this, then we could work on the Saorview network people to improve the quality of the data in the longer term. As far as I can see, ABM is 90% there as regards the Irish DVB-T system. It's storing the bouquet information with the correct channel numbers (LCNs) and the channel names are correct. It's just the tuning frequency that is wrong as it's using the NIT frequency instead of the frequency stored in the xml - so a workaround might be possible, maybe? In the Freeview system you provide the initial main BBC1 transmitter frequency in the xml and then ABM derives the corresponding multiplex frequencies from the NIT (or maybe BAT if it is present)? The Saorview system is much simpler in that there are only two multiplexes per transmitter and those frequencies are published data - I can probably provide an xml file such as the one Peterj suggested earlier with all the RTENL transmitter frequencies included, if it would help.

Is the Python source code for ABM available on a git repository? Maybe I could have a look at it to see how it extracts the info from the stream data. I've done a lot of analysis of the Saorview stream data for the Irish boards members over the years.
 
fat-tony said:
Is the Python source code for ABM available on a git repository? Maybe I could have a look at it to see how it extracts the info from the stream data. I've done a lot of analysis of the Saorview stream data for the Irish boards members over the years.
Click to expand...

All of the source code for ABM is available here.

Code: 
 https://github.com/oe-alliance/oe-alliance-plugins/tree/master/AutoBouquetsMaker
 
ABM uses a home channel frequency to scan NIT and SDT for all transponder and all channel information. For most DVB-S and DVB-C providers this works.
DVB-T is different. There is no 'home channel'. It depends on receiving signal from main transmitter or from a repeater.
Therefor you must know each frequency to scan, for each transmitter/repeater.
Also when you know one of the correct frequency to scan, you only get transponder and channel information in NIT and SDT for that specific frequency. When there are 2 transponders, you must know 2 frequencies to scan.

I think it is possible to use ABM for all DVB-T providers, only there must be an XML line with freq. info etc for each transmitter/transmitter for each transponder. Not 1 XML line for 1 provider in 1 region, like DVB-C.
ABM should be modified when in case DVB-T is scanned, don't use frequency stored in NIT, but use frequency as in XML for that transponder and use only information from NIT and SDT of that specific transponder (in case more info is in NIT).
 
Peterj said:
ABM uses a home channel frequency to scan NIT and SDT for all transponder and all channel information. For most DVB-S and DVB-C providers this works.
DVB-T is different. There is no 'home channel'. It depends on receiving signal from main transmitter or from a repeater.
Therefor you must know each frequency to scan, for each transmitter/repeater.
Also when you know one of the correct frequency to scan, you only get transponder and channel information in NIT and SDT for that specific frequency. When there are 2 transponders, you must know 2 frequencies to scan.

I think it is possible to use ABM for all DVB-T providers, only there must be an XML line with freq. info etc for each transmitter/transmitter for each transponder. Not 1 XML line for 1 provider in 1 region, like DVB-C.
ABM should be modified when in case DVB-T is scanned, don't use frequency stored in NIT, but use frequency as in XML for that transponder and use only information from NIT and SDT of that specific transponder (in case more info is in NIT).
Click to expand...

@Peterj - I think that we are probably in agreement about the issue, then. What makes the DVB-S simpler is the presence of the BAT (Bouquet Association Table) which lists all the transponders belonging to a bouquet and from there you can work out all the channel service IDs etc.
Are you saying, though, that this issue about DVB-T is a general one and that it is happening in the UK Freeview system also? I have no way of scanning a UK terrestrial transmitter, nor can I scan DVB-C, so I cannot comment on the content of the data streams. I thought, perhaps, that ABM was working ok for Freeview but that the tuning/frequency issue was a problem in the Irish Saorview DVB-T system? I see that you are located in the Nertherlands and you may not have direct experience of ABM on UK Freeview.
 
@Peterj, @andyblac - just for avoidance of doubt. I have tuned to UHF channel 30 (546MHz) and UHF channel 33 (570MHz) which are the two multiplexes carried on the main transmitter (Three Rock mountain) for the Dublin Area. I don't use this normally as the signal is marginal for me. Included in the zip file is my current lamedb and NIT dumps for 546 and 570MHz. As far as I can see this confirms my view that the main and relay transmitters all contain the same set of tuning information which as we can see is not reliable enough. There are 12 main high-power transmitters and about 52 lower-power relays serving the country, so a table with 64x2 entries would cover the entire Saorview network. The main transmitters are named after the mountain where they are located and the relays are well-defined geographic locations so users should be able to identify their local transmitter relatively easily.
 

Attachments

@Peterj - Is the set of parameters used in the xml files associated with ABM described anywhere? For example "modulation", "system", "transmission mode". For example, in the standard terrestrial.xml file "transmission mode" is set to 1 to indicate 8k mode (or 2 for auto) and lamedb uses 3 for 8k mode (or 0 for auto). The example you posted earlier for Saorview uses 6 for "transmission mode". What would be useful would be an example list of the various parameters and their values in the header of the xml file, similar to the standard terrestrial.xml file.
 
imo, the whole point of ABM to scan for the transponders, having to supply ABM a xml with a list is pointless and NOT what ABM is for, for me i use Pontop Pike transmitter and abm scans this and find all (sd) transponders fine, and creates the bouquets to tune, imo ABM should only tune and scan ONE frequency to find all necessary info, if this can't be done from a transmitter that transmitter imo should not be supported.

i see no need to duplicate xml for abm as the original terestrial.xml as that should all the transponders listed for a given transmitter to scan.
 
andyblac said:
imo, the whole point of ABM to scan for the transponders, having to supply ABM a xml with a list is pointless and NOT what ABM is for, for me i use Pontop Pike transmitter and abm scans this and find all (sd) transponders fine, and creates the bouquets to tune, imo ABM should only tune and scan ONE frequency to find all necessary info, if this can't be done from a transmitter that transmitter imo should not be supported.

i see no need to duplicate xml for abm as the original terestrial.xml as that should all the transponders listed for a given transmitter to scan.
Click to expand...
I was just about to post what I found when I tried @Peterj's suggestion of two frequency entries in the xml file. This doesn't work because two entries in the xml gives you the option of scanning one or another multiplexes, but not both.
I'm inclined to agree with you that listing all the multiplexes (transponders) in the terrestrial xml is not the way forward as it would create a maintenance workload. However, in the short term, ABM is not going to work in the Saorview network due to the lack of linked multiplex data in the NIT and the absence of BAT. I think for the Irish combo terrestrial and satellite environment that the E2 autobouquets might be an easier option as it allows a seamless list of terrestrial channels at the top followed by the satellite channels. Probably not worth hacking ABM to cope with the deficiencies of Saorview:(
If you have time at some stage I would like to see a dvbsnoop scan of your Pontop Pike transmitter similar to the ones I've provided. I'd like to be able to compare the NIT (and BAT info if provided).
 
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